Comments for M-Base Blog http://mbase.wordpress.com Sun, 18 May 2008 02:25:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU Comment on The ‘nexus’ of a Musical Language and Jazz by mbase http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-836 mbase Mon, 10 Mar 2008 05:22:07 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-836 Hahaha! Me too! Hahaha! Me too!

]]> Comment on The ‘nexus’ of a Musical Language and Jazz by Daoud Merchant http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-835 Daoud Merchant Mon, 10 Mar 2008 01:48:05 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-835 I like this M-base malarky a lot I like this M-base malarky a lot

]]> Comment on The ‘nexus’ of a Musical Language and Jazz by Bill Mithoefer http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-480 Bill Mithoefer Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:20:58 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-480 Hi Steve, Will try and find the source. I believe it may have been something as mundane as the New Yorker. Will try and figure it out. Thanks for the response. cheers, Bill Hi Steve,

Will try and find the source. I believe it may have been something as mundane as the New Yorker. Will try and figure it out. Thanks for the response.

cheers, Bill

]]> Comment on The ‘nexus’ of a Musical Language and Jazz by mbase http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-307 mbase Thu, 08 Nov 2007 03:22:27 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-307 Hmmm, What is your source that you are referring to for the Rajasthani folk singers? Ann Grodzins Gold has written a little about this in the book 'A Carnival of Parting: The Tales of King Bharthari and King Gopi Chand' Rajasthan borders an area that I am really interested in which includes the ancient sites of the Indus-Saraswati (Indus-Valley) civilization. Even though the language has not been fully deciphered, there have been very interesting attempts to figure it out and the results show that the language was similar to that of ancient Egypt and ancient Sumer (two other areas that I'm interested in) in that the writing was basically logo-syllabic, which is a writing system where the symbols can function as either words (logograms) or sounds (phonetic symbols). Since much of this overlaps with music, in particular with my approach, I'm very interested in this type of thing and I've been checking into it here and there. I am very interested in these earlier ideas about how to represent ideas in symbolic form, either using sound (including music) writing, story telling (including myths and parables), sign language, dance, etc. It is extremely interesting to me how a symbol can have a mundane meaning and a spiritual meaning at the same time while representing two different words that sound the similar and are written similar. Its also interesting that the word 'Homophony' refers to both two or more words that sound the same but have different origins or meaning (like hair and hare) and also to the style of music where the melody is moving in a chordal style and there is no independence of voices (there are other musical meanings also; a type of polyphony with a dominant melody accompanied by chords, a soloist with a rhythm section accompaniment, a musical texture where one melody line dominates while the others remain in the background, etc.) You also find this characteristic (different signs meaning different things but representing the same sound, or the same sign representing the same sound but meaning different things) in the myths of this time. Many of the myths (i.e. story-telling) have multiple levels of meaning. This is how I am trying to construct my music also, using this kind of approach. Indus-Valley script expert Asko Parpola in his work 'Deciphering the Indus Script' summed up the main developments in the evolution of expressing ideas through writing as follows: ----- From: http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola16.html The human ability to analyze language and to represent it with written symbols has evolved gradually. In the first stage of "pre-writing", pictures stood for whole sentences or narrations. The next step was to break sentences into separately written words, or rather, morphemes (that is, the smallest meaningful units) which include not only lexical roots but also grammatical markers. In the beginning it was almost exclusively the root morphemes carrying the lexical meaning that were marked in writing, while the grammatical affixes which the root happened to have in any given context were omitted in the script, being left to be guessed and supplied by the reader. This form of writing has been called "nuclear." Occasionally, however, some basic grammatical affixes were marked even in the earliest script, the archaic Sumerian. Gradually all the grammatical affixes became represented in writing. This complex "logo-syllabic" script demanded many hundreds of graphemes, each of which could have several different meanings. The next major step in the history of writing was the simplification of the system into a "syllabic" script, where only about one hundred signs, each with just one fixed phonetic value, could be used to write about 90% of the texts. The syllabic script was still somewhat clumsy, but eventually, with the successive emergence of the consonantal alphabet and the full alphabet, human speech could accurately and economically be mirrored in writing. ----- So I see many parallels between this and music. And of course I would since the main goal here is the communication of ideas and the systems of music and languages are sonic systems developed by Humans after all, that is the overall connection. Peace, Steve Hmmm, What is your source that you are referring to for the Rajasthani folk singers?

Ann Grodzins Gold has written a little about this in the book ‘A Carnival of Parting: The Tales of King Bharthari and King Gopi Chand’

Rajasthan borders an area that I am really interested in which includes the ancient sites of the Indus-Saraswati (Indus-Valley) civilization. Even though the language has not been fully deciphered, there have been very interesting attempts to figure it out and the results show that the language was similar to that of ancient Egypt and ancient Sumer (two other areas that I’m interested in) in that the writing was basically logo-syllabic, which is a writing system where the symbols can function as either words (logograms) or sounds (phonetic symbols). Since much of this overlaps with music, in particular with my approach, I’m very interested in this type of thing and I’ve been checking into it here and there.

I am very interested in these earlier ideas about how to represent ideas in symbolic form, either using sound (including music) writing, story telling (including myths and parables), sign language, dance, etc. It is extremely interesting to me how a symbol can have a mundane meaning and a spiritual meaning at the same time while representing two different words that sound the similar and are written similar. Its also interesting that the word ‘Homophony’ refers to both two or more words that sound the same but have different origins or meaning (like hair and hare) and also to the style of music where the melody is moving in a chordal style and there is no independence of voices (there are other musical meanings also; a type of polyphony with a dominant melody accompanied by chords, a soloist with a rhythm section accompaniment, a musical texture where one melody line dominates while the others remain in the background, etc.)

You also find this characteristic (different signs meaning different things but representing the same sound, or the same sign representing the same sound but meaning different things) in the myths of this time. Many of the myths (i.e. story-telling) have multiple levels of meaning. This is how I am trying to construct my music also, using this kind of approach.

Indus-Valley script expert Asko Parpola in his work ‘Deciphering the Indus Script’ summed up the main developments in the evolution of expressing ideas through writing as follows:

—–
From: http://www.harappa.com/script/parpola16.html

The human ability to analyze language and to represent it with written symbols has evolved gradually. In the first stage of “pre-writing”, pictures stood for whole sentences or narrations. The next step was to break sentences into separately written words, or rather, morphemes (that is, the smallest meaningful units) which include not only lexical roots but also grammatical markers. In the beginning it was almost exclusively the root morphemes carrying the lexical meaning that were marked in writing, while the grammatical affixes which the root happened to have in any given context were omitted in the script, being left to be guessed and supplied by the reader. This form of writing has been called “nuclear.”

Occasionally, however, some basic grammatical affixes were marked even in the earliest script, the archaic Sumerian. Gradually all the grammatical affixes became represented in writing. This complex “logo-syllabic” script demanded many hundreds of graphemes, each of which could have several different meanings. The next major step in the history of writing was the simplification of the system into a “syllabic” script, where only about one hundred signs, each with just one fixed phonetic value, could be used to write about 90% of the texts. The syllabic script was still somewhat clumsy, but eventually, with the successive emergence of the consonantal alphabet and the full alphabet, human speech could accurately and economically be mirrored in writing.
—–

So I see many parallels between this and music. And of course I would since the main goal here is the communication of ideas and the systems of music and languages are sonic systems developed by Humans after all, that is the overall connection.

Peace,

Steve

]]> Comment on The ‘nexus’ of a Musical Language and Jazz by Bill Mithoefer http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-303 Bill Mithoefer Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:42:42 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/04/the-nexus-of-a-musical-language-and-jazz/#comment-303 I think that the point you make about what story-telling through music, narrative and what the actual telling of a story means is a very fruitful avenue for exploration. Reading of Rajasthani folk singers, who can play and sing songs encompassed in a narrative that can take a month to finish (I might be exaggerating as it could be 3 days or 2 weeks,) and what happened when they learned to write the words down. The singers who learned to write the words down had a much harder time keeping the songs in memory. Also, after seeing the movie "Ten Canoes," I was struck by the Aboriginal method of telling a story, as an elder described it, they had to move along all of the branches of the tree. Instead of a typically Western (or not) linear narrative, the narrator would say and then this happened or this or such and such, taking the listener along multiple branches of story. In some ways this is where the temporal elements you mention can be exploited through multiple instruments, each telling different branches of a story. Unfortunately, I'm not really articulating this very effectively, but these are some of the things that were brought to mind from reading your comment above. Wondering if you have any thoughts on these subjects. Salutations from Portland, OR. I think that the point you make about what story-telling through music, narrative and what the actual telling of a story means is a very fruitful avenue for exploration. Reading of Rajasthani folk singers, who can play and sing songs encompassed in a narrative that can take a month to finish (I might be exaggerating as it could be 3 days or 2 weeks,) and what happened when they learned to write the words down. The singers who learned to write the words down had a much harder time keeping the songs in memory.

Also, after seeing the movie “Ten Canoes,” I was struck by the Aboriginal method of telling a story, as an elder described it, they had to move along all of the branches of the tree. Instead of a typically Western (or not) linear narrative, the narrator would say and then this happened or this or such and such, taking the listener along multiple branches of story. In some ways this is where the temporal elements you mention can be exploited through multiple instruments, each telling different branches of a story.

Unfortunately, I’m not really articulating this very effectively, but these are some of the things that were brought to mind from reading your comment above. Wondering if you have any thoughts on these subjects. Salutations from Portland, OR.

]]> Comment on Symmetric Questions by James http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions/#comment-11 James Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:58:47 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions-2/#comment-11 My exposure to symmetry and reciprocity came initially from the study of art, chemistry, and occult sciences. It was later applied to music. The above and below offers a challenge for the observer that seems bound to one condition of either above or below in the psychological physiological linear sense. It was at a workshop of yours at Tonic that I posed the question "does one hear upside down?". While it is not certain whether one can hear below one can experience the reciprocity of emotions associated with polar shifts in music such that if minor is an upside down major and major is majestic the upside down major is upside down sun which could be percieved as right side up moon to both the trained and untrained ear. Conversely, the trained ear could hear it as both. The functionality would differ based on cadences that fall either above a tone or below a tone thus flipping ones emotions and idiosyncracies. The case for visualization is strong in that one must develop a reference for "what" the reciprocal emotions are for above and below nuclei. Rhythm differs in that it contains reciprocals, ghosts or by-product rhythms, and additive and subtractive components. The gravitational pull is heard here with the same weight as it is heard within harmonic constructs and produces a similar affect rhythmically. Discovery is infinite. The opportunity to exchange is invaluable. Continue to share your insights. Many thanks. My exposure to symmetry and reciprocity came initially from the study of art, chemistry, and occult sciences. It was later applied to music. The above and below offers a challenge for the observer that seems bound to one condition of either above or below in the psychological physiological linear sense.
It was at a workshop of yours at Tonic that I posed the question “does one hear upside down?”.
While it is not certain whether one can hear below one can experience the reciprocity of emotions associated with polar shifts in music such that if minor is an upside down major and major is majestic the upside down major is upside down sun which could be percieved as right side up moon to both the trained and untrained ear. Conversely, the trained ear could hear it as both. The functionality would differ based
on cadences that fall either above a tone or below a tone thus flipping ones emotions and idiosyncracies.
The case for visualization is strong in that one must develop a reference for “what” the reciprocal emotions
are for above and below nuclei.
Rhythm differs in that it contains reciprocals, ghosts or by-product rhythms, and additive and subtractive
components. The gravitational pull is heard here with the same weight as it is heard within harmonic constructs and produces a similar affect rhythmically.
Discovery is infinite.
The opportunity to exchange is invaluable.
Continue to share your insights. Many thanks.

]]> Comment on Timbral Improvisation by Jonathan http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/01/hello-world/#comment-6 Jonathan Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:51:53 +0000 #comment-6 Steve, Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this excellent blog. "I feel strongly that the younger generation that is involved in creative music today are foregoing the detailed rhythmic and melodic developments demonstrated by the older masters (which take an incredible amount of concentration to develop) in favor of more ‘effects’." Due to a failure of music education by parents, educational institutions, media, etc., many people can only hear sounds that are physically present. Most people cannot hear sounds that are not physically present. The consequences of this: people do not audiate a tonality so they cannot anticipate or predict the next chord in a progression. They do not audiate meter so they cannot anticipate or predict what is going on rhythmically. They are not perceiving syntax in music, and thus, cannot experience or participate in music with comprehension. Without tonality and meter, the elements to keep listeners' attention that remain are the lyrics of a song (because most parents, schools, and media nurture and encourage children with spoken language), and of course, interesting sounds - "effects." Steve,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this excellent blog.

“I feel strongly that the younger generation that is involved in creative music today are foregoing the detailed rhythmic and melodic developments demonstrated by the older masters (which take an incredible amount of concentration to develop) in favor of more ‘effects’.”

Due to a failure of music education by parents, educational institutions, media, etc., many people can only hear sounds that are physically present. Most people cannot hear sounds that are not physically present. The consequences of this: people do not audiate a tonality so they cannot anticipate or predict the next chord in a progression. They do not audiate meter so they cannot anticipate or predict what is going on rhythmically. They are not perceiving syntax in music, and thus, cannot experience or participate in music with comprehension.

Without tonality and meter, the elements to keep listeners’ attention that remain are the lyrics of a song (because most parents, schools, and media nurture and encourage children with spoken language), and of course, interesting sounds - “effects.”

]]> Comment on Timbral Improvisation by Brandon http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/01/hello-world/#comment-5 Brandon Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:05:19 +0000 #comment-5 I like the idea you present here, but i think that is slightly incongruous with psychology's evaluation of music and language. While certainly both symbolic and representative, and as a result expressive, cognitive science, and neuropsychological studies indicate more that language is a distinct, evolutionary, survivalist adaptation, while music is something less well understood, and much later developed. A leading researcher in Harvard University's cognitive neuroscience lab has the opinion, based on experimental results that, as we like cheesecake, so do we like music. That is, in the way that cheesecake stimulates senses which are primarily used for survival purposes (our sense of taste, normally reserved for sorting out what we eat) so does music stimulate our auditory senses, and cause activiation in language areas of our brain, suggesting that it is exercising these symbolic processing pathways in a novel way. Full elaboration on this subject requires more space, but I thought I'd comment, because it seemed you might find interesting some of the studies published pertaining to this topic. Particularly of interest would be the works on the psychology of music by Peter Cariani, as a starting point. Great blog, by the way, i enjoy reading into the deep technical issues you include. I like the idea you present here, but i think that is slightly incongruous with psychology’s evaluation of music and language. While certainly both symbolic and representative, and as a result expressive, cognitive science, and neuropsychological studies indicate more that language is a distinct, evolutionary, survivalist adaptation, while music is something less well understood, and much later developed. A leading researcher in Harvard University’s cognitive neuroscience lab has the opinion, based on experimental results that, as we like cheesecake, so do we like music. That is, in the way that cheesecake stimulates senses which are primarily used for survival purposes (our sense of taste, normally reserved for sorting out what we eat) so does music stimulate our auditory senses, and cause activiation in language areas of our brain, suggesting that it is exercising these symbolic processing pathways in a novel way. Full elaboration on this subject requires more space, but I thought I’d comment, because it seemed you might find interesting some of the studies published pertaining to this topic. Particularly of interest would be the works on the psychology of music by Peter Cariani, as a starting point.

Great blog, by the way, i enjoy reading into the deep technical issues you include.

]]> Comment on Symmetric Questions by mbase http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions/#comment-4 mbase Wed, 08 Aug 2007 00:48:09 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions-2/#comment-4 No problem, hope there are not too many typos! I have to fix those tables! By the way the names and structures I am talking about are the octave species from the ancient Greek texts, not the medieval modes that most people are familiar with. I will post another blog entry soon to try and sort out the differences and similarities. No problem, hope there are not too many typos! I have to fix those tables! By the way the names and structures I am talking about are the octave species from the ancient Greek texts, not the medieval modes that most people are familiar with. I will post another blog entry soon to try and sort out the differences and similarities.

]]> Comment on Symmetric Questions by Dan http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions/#comment-3 Dan Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:41:19 +0000 http://mbase.wordpress.com/2007/08/03/symmetric-questions-2/#comment-3 Wow! Thanks for posting this and sharing your thoughts Steve. Wow! Thanks for posting this and sharing your thoughts Steve.

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